Getting to understand a classic Jesus rocker
In September of 2025, I met with Randy Matthews and we did the interview that follows. We flew Randy to New York City and we sat in Bryant Park in Manhattan and talked about his career.
There was Randy, his son Ash, my wife Isobel and myself, Darren Hirst.
The plan at the time was that we would get to know each other and then work on remastering his old albums and getting those re-released and then work on some new recordings, At this point, it looks like the rest of that will now never happen.
But I don’t want to get morose, here’s the interview:
Darren Hirst
Randy, I want to begin by asking you a couple of questions that listeners have sent in. First lady is a question from a lady called Beth Devlin. Beth says that in around 1996, she used to work with you on the hut on Englewood Beach. She made jewellery, she did hair wraps with you. She remembers a song that you wrote around that time that was either called Grace or Jealous Grace.
Randy Matthews
Slippery Mercy Jealous Grace.
Darren Hirst
Yeah. Do you have any plans? If we do an album of new recording of songs, is that one that you might include?
Randy Matthews
I’ve never finished it. It was really just a working title.
Darren Hirst
Okay. It’s not finished? She was asking about that. Oh well, can’t have a happy answer for everybody. Then we also had a question from a guy called Nathan. Nathan was asking, what inspired you to write the song Man of the Morning Sun?
Randy Matthews
That was one song that just came to me. Usually, when I write, I get an idea for a tune, and I’ll sit down, and I’ll craft it out and work it out. This idea, I would just sit playing my guitar, and it came to me. There was no thought behind it,
Darren Hirst
No other inspiration behind it?
Randy Matthews
It just came out.
Darren Hirst
Maybe it’s just one of those songs that comes down from the heavens.
Randy Matthews
Yeah, it was just a gift. There was no inspiration behind it. It just came to me. Some songs -every once in a while, are like that. I find that with me. I have to write about 10 songs or 15 songs before I get to a good one. Then I find one, but every once in a while, you’re going to drop one right on. That happened with another song called Didn’t He?
Darren Hirst
Sure.
Randy Matthews
I wrote that song in 20 minutes. It just dropped on. I wanted to write a song with that to demonstrate the pain and the suffering in music – a little bit of the crucifixion. That’s been a very powerful tune for me over the years.
Darren Hirst
I guess with “Didn’t He,” that has probably become the song that most people associate with you. That has been a very, very popular song and a very accomplished song, if I might say it that way. We have spent a lot of time over the last few weeks talking about the different albums that you made back then and the order that we should release them in. When do you think, in terms of your recording career, you were first hitting your stride?
Randy Matthews
Very good question.
Darren Hirst
What was the first album that you were happy with?
Randy Matthews
What happened was there was a man by the name Billy Ray Hearn, who had been a choir director before he was hired to be a producer for Word Records. My record was the first record that he had ever produced. I was having to record songs on that record that I had written when I was 15, 16 years old. The songs I was writing currently were too radical for the Word label. The second album that I did, I began to find myself on it, but it was more like Randy Matthews sings like such and such. Billy Ray was still working with me as a producer. Not to say berate Billy Ray. Billy Ray is a great man and a great producer and a great visionary. But as a producer, we weren’t seeing eye to eye.
Darren Hirst
Sure.
Randy Matthews
The third album, he still produced, but gave me total range of it. That Son of Dust record. Son of Dust is where I really came into my own.
Darren Hirst
Okay. Just to clarify for people who are reading this, the first album that Randy referred to is “Wish We’d All Been Ready,” which also, for obvious reasons, the title track was the Larry Norman composition, and the second album was “All I Am is What You See, I Pray, You See the Truth in Me,” which is probably the longest title of any album in the whole of creation. It’s a whole song, man.
Ash Matthews
Every song is one title!
Darren Hirst
In terms of “Son of Dust,” we’ve mentioned, ‘Didn’t He?” Are there other tracks on there that, looking back now, you think those were good songs?
Randy Matthews
Holy Band was a great song. They were just a great fun song. I’m thinking about the record of Pharoah’s Hand, I always wanted.
Ash Matthews
That has been sampled in hip hop. Just so you know, Pharaoh’s Hand has been sampled in a major hip hop artist song.
Randy Matthews
Those are my favourites.
Darren Hirst
Sure. I was always fond, myself, of “In the Morning.”
Randy Matthews
“In the Morning?”
Darren Hirst
Yeah, that was a great, great song. It is.
Randy Matthews
Thank you, sir.
Darren Hirst
It was several years after “Son of Dust” that I first discovered your music.
Randy Matthews
Yes, sir.
Darren Hirst
In terms of, I don’t know if you remember this, but in terms of the timetable, was it the studio album, “Eyes to the Sky,” came out, or was it, “Now Do You Understand,” that came out? Which one of those was first?
Randy Matthews
“Now Do You Understand” came out next.
Darren Hirst
Yeah. Because it was the first album of yours that I heard.
Randy Matthews
“Eyes to the Sky” was the first album after the big unplug in front of a big audience.
Darren Hirst
I was sharing with you yesterday that the “Now Do You Understand” album had a major impact on my life, and otherwise, we wouldn’t be sitting here today. I felt when I first heard it, so drawn in to the whole of the concert that is on Now do you understand? Not just the songs, but the humour. When you were doing country faith, and also the spoken word parts, which are almost poetry to me.
Darren Hirst
Whose decision was it to put out a live album. Do you remember that at all?
Randy Matthews
Yeah, that was my man, West Yoder. Wes was my manager at that time. We were trying to… well, who’s what decision was it to do what?
Darren Hirst
To do the live album, I suppose.
Randy Matthews
Do the live album. It was a mutual decision between me, the producer and the record company.
Darren Hirst
Okay.
Randy Matthews
Yeah, it was the record company. We tried that, and then we tried to see… When I got umplugged, I really got hurt. I tried over the next few records to explain a little bit about it.
Darren Hirst
Sure.
Randy Matthews
That was probably the first I’m trying to think of in Australia, it was the first time I played that song.
Darren Hirst
Sure.
Randy Matthews
I told the story. Yeah.
Darren Hirst
Obviously then we have “Eyes to the Sky” that I’ve already mentioned, which always seems to me to have more of an apocalyptic / end times theme going on in some songs, the “Four Horsemen” and that type of thing. Are you happy with that album?
Randy Matthews
Yes, I was. I was happy but two or three tunes on there that I did, that I co-wrote with Austin Roberts, were not really my style. You know how the record company works. They push their material on you, their publishing on you. I had to do those tunes, a couple of tunes on there. Outside of those tunes, I was happy. I was very happy with the rest of the record. “Four Horsemen.” I’m very happy with that. “Wounded Warrior,” the other songs that I have. But I’m proud of that record.
Darren Hirst
Again, I said to you a couple of days ago that I was scouting around because where I live in England, even in the 1980s, your albums were really, really hard to find. We obviously then we had no Internet and there’s none of the sites like Discogs, where you can find loads of copies of things. I’m scouting around, and particularly at a Greenbelt Festival. They used to have stalls where albums were for sale, not just Word albums or Myrrh albums, but all kinds of things. I remember Larry Norman used to come over, and he would just bring suitcases full of his records because nobody in England could get them. That’s where I discovered “Eyes to the Sky,” which is a great love of mine. I love that album. I love the artwork. The sleeve, but also in the inner sleeve. Each song has a little, almost like an icon that depicts what the song is about. I thought it was so well laid out.
Ash Matthews
In front of that album is a giant painting that I lost. But it was like six by… it was a big painting. A lot of work went in that painting.
Darren Hirst
The front cover is somewhere between Randy Matthews and Elijah.
Ash Matthews
That’s good, man.
Darren Hirst
I guess that after that album, your contract with Myrrh came to a rather fast end because of everything that had happened.
Randy Matthews
Everything that had happened. We did the Best of Randy Matthews to fill the contract. I didn’t record anything after that. Didn’t record again until Spirit records. By that time, I had a band. I’d always worked as a solo. I had a band. We did a couple of good records. It was a good band.
Darren Hirst
One of the albums that we must not forget, because I know a lot of people out there are looking for this to be re-released, is one you’ve mentioned already, which is Live in Australia. Which has some songs that would eventually appear on the Spirit albums, but also has some great chat between the songs. It is a funny album, but also, it’s something that grabs you right in the heart. If you look this up on the internet, there’s a guy selling a copy of this on eBay, at the moment, for $2,500.
Darren Hirst
Then, as you say, you signed for Spirit. First of the albums there, Randy Matthews. Almost like putting your name back out there, putting your stamp on it, This is me. On there, I think I’m writing saying you recorded the Arlo Guthrie song. Which side are you on?
Randy Matthews
Great song.
Darren Hirst
Yeah. It’s Arlo’s journey that has been a strange one because he was a Christian for a while, and then he changed direction, but obviously, he’s the son of Woody Guthrie.” Then you tie in everything into the whole history of popular music and gospel music because with no Woody Guthrie, there would be no Bob Dylan. With no Bob Dylan, there would be no Slow Train Coming and Saved and all those albums. Do you remember where you first heard that song? Which side are you on?
Randy Matthews
I had a manager by the name of Ray Niño. He said, I got a tune I want you to hear. He played it for me. I said, man, fell in love with it then. But that would have been shortly before we did the record. Because I remember the way I just sat down and did the new arrangement, figure out the arrangement on it, that was shortly while we were recording. Usually, I’m prepared for it to be in. But that one was with my band. We’re still talking about “Which Side of You On??
Randy Matthews
Oh, yeah.
Darren Hirst
Arlo Guthrie.
Randy Matthews
The verse in there I see Jesus walking down the street. He’s in there. I think, okay, because I always wondered about that.
Darren Hirst
The thing for me, again, as I say, if you imagine I’m in England at the time. Those two albums, Randy Matthews, and the one we’re going to mention in a moment, which was plugged in, never were released in England. But then in the early 1990s, some company, I can’t remember which one, put out a series of CDs called “The Rock Revival,” volume one, volume two, volume three. “Which side are you on was on” was on one of those. I’m thinking, new Randy Matthews material. I didn’t realise that it was… It was already like 10 years old. That was the first time I heard it. Then obviously, as I was later to find out, that was Plugged In. You like that album?
Randy Matthews
Yeah, I do like that album. I like that album because it’s me and my band. That’s the band that toured with me for three years. Yeah, I like that.
Ash Matthews
You had more creative control with them.
Darren Hirst
One of the songs we mentioned yesterday the day when we were talking is the song “White Boat.” on “Plugged In”
Randy Matthews
“White Boat.”
Darren Hirst
Where did that come from?
Randy Matthews
That was an actual dream. I don’t know how you dream, but when I dream, I can only remember parts of what happened. That came from an actual dream of a “White Boat” and a “Black Boat” and departing. I thought that’s what we’re calling the song.
Darren Hirst
One of the more unusual songs on there is “Loud Shroud.”
Randy Matthews
“Loud Shroud,” I love that song. That’s when all the debate was going on and still continues, I guess, about the shroud. We thought we’d just write a song about the shroud one night and hopefully and make that out and speak.
Darren Hirst
One of the things we were talking about yesterday in a humorous way is the artwork on the sleeve of “Plugged In,” which I have to say, every time I take the record out at home, it makes me shudder a little bit because I don’t know if you’ve seen this, Isobel, but Randy’s feet are into the plug socket in order to…
Ash Matthews
When that album came out, and I wanted my friends to listen to it, I did not show them the cover. They would be like, How do we know it’s your dad? I’d be like, You got to look at the record. They’re like, Where’s the cover? I’m like, They didn’t come with one? Even at four, I was like, this is weird, man.
Darren Hirst
Then after that, I guess your career as a “Jesus rock” artist, a gospel rock artist, became tougher.
Randy Matthews
Very tough. What happened was we kept the band alive, for three years.
Darren Hirst
Sure.
Randy Matthews
Working just crazy. Then Spirit went bust, and I had to give the band up. Then I started playing solo again. It was really, really tough. If it hadn’t been for my wife. I would never, ever have been close to what I had been going to accomplish. She booked me. I played for 20 people. I played for youth groups. I played for whatever I could play for. Not for the love of doing it, for paying the bills.
Darren Hirst
Sure.
Randy Matthews
I don’t believe I was ever bitter about it. I heard about it, I think, when we were in. I was hurt. I had to go to the doctor. I have a post-traumatic stress syndrome. It was… Did anybody ever tell you that story, how that happened? Did you ever hear the story of the-
Darren Hirst
Well, you mean the Pennsylvania unpluggind? Yeah, I know that.
Randy Matthews
That would be… The details are crazy. It’s scary.
Darren Hirst
Obviously, out of this very difficult situation that you were dealing with, the next opportunity you got to make a full album was “Streets of Mercy,” which I know you’re not too happy with.
Randy Matthews
No. Now, this is one of these things. This had three producers on. I wasn’t there for hardly any of the sessions. It just gives me a headache to think about it today. The producer was an old friend of mine that really let me down. He produced the Plugged In album.
Darren Hirst
Sure.
Randy Matthews
Everything went weird. The record came out, and it was produced by three different producers. They’d take the track and added drums after the whole thing. Oh, my God! It was a strange trip.
Darren Hirst
It is funny because, again, this is one of these albums that never came out in England. Again, I searched around for a copy of it, not knowing anything about it other than that it was you. I eventually found a cassette copy on a stall… again, at Greenbelt. It took me several years after that to find a record rather than the cassette. I have to say, because I didn’t live through that in the way that you did, I just finished. I heard the finished product. Then I quite like that record.
Ash Matthews
Do you like that record?
Darren Hirst
Yeah. Some of the songs on it, I’m not that keen, but it is-
Ash Matthews
I remember when he brought that record home. This is an early memory, I guess. He was sick. I remember he brought that record home. It was the age where I was understanding my dad’s doing music, my sister, et cetera. We were excited. Mum was excited. Where my dad was, I think you weren’t even… I remember specifically, dad doesn’t like this. I just remembered that that’s how much you didn’t like it. You were disappointed so bad.
Darren Hirst
One of the things that I would say is that the album, to me, didn’t and doesn’t sound like an authentic Randy Matthews record.
Randy Matthews
Yeah, it sounds like John Thompson.
Darren Hirst
Yeah, it feels like they you put into a difficult situation.
Randy Matthews
You got it right there because that’s exactly what it was.
Darren Hirst
It feels like they punched him in on everything. You got a great voice still, and everything is good, but it seems to attempt to slot you into what was happening in what they call contemporary Christian music.
Randy Matthews
That’s exactly what they were doing. That’s exactly what they were doing.
Darren Hirst
In a way, with people like yourself and Larry Norman and Randy Stonehill and that generation of people, you were Jesus rock. You weren’t contemporary Christian music. It was a little like a different animal, it was almost like they’d copy and pasted your voice over a different sound track.
Ash Matthews
They basically punched it in, correct? They basically went and punched his vocals in.
Darren Hirst
Do you remember what label that was on?
Randy Matthews
Yeah, it was on Refuge Records.
Darren Hirst
At the time, I had a conversation with a guy called Larry Howard. Yeah, there you go. He was a blues player. Yeah, and he was a great blues guitarist who developed a huge prison Ministry. One day we were sitting over, we had a bag of donuts on a table like this, and we were sitting talking. He said to me, “one of the problems that I got, Darren,” I’m not going to try and do his accent because he was from the south of North America. He said, “One of the problems I got, Darren, is that when I do a studio album, they don’t want me to play a guitar solo. They want a song that if I was playing it live, would be six or seven minutes, and they want it in two minutes.” He did, I think, his first album for… I can’t remember. It may even have been the same label that you were on.
Randy Matthews
It was the same label.
Darren Hirst
I think his first album was “Sanctified Blues.” It sounded a little like they try to sweeten it up for an audience. I think Larry only came to his best when they recorded live albums with him.
Randy Matthews
He was raw.
Darren Hirst
He was a good guy. Sadly, passed away a few years ago. Again, like yourself, had amazing problems with arthritic hands. When you’re a blues guitarist, and you can’t get your hands to do what they used to do, then that is-
Ash Matthews
Heartbreaker.
Darren Hirst
Then, I guess the last album until now is “The Edge of Flight.”
Randy Matthews
Best thing I ever did.
Darren Hirst
Yeah. Well, I’m glad you feel like that. I love that record. It’s a great record.
Randy Matthews
I’m proud to say that Billy Smiley did a wonderful, wonderful job on it. Billy, very humbly, I say this, but Billy credits me for being what he does today, for my early records and that stuff. He just did a tremendous job on it.
Darren Hirst
Okay.
Randy Matthews
I thought the songs were good, I thought, you know what I’m saying?
Darren Hirst
You rescued two of the songs from Streets of Mercy that you hadn’t been happy with and did them over again in something that was more your style. Ti Chapé and the one I keep forgetting the name of.
Darren Hirst
I wish it were only make believe, something like that.
Darren Hirst
Yeah, we will talk about that. I’ll check the track listing. That album. I remember you did a project we were talking about a couple of days ago with some of the old Jesus rockers, the “First Love,” album and the two songs that presumably, whether they wanted you to do them or you wanted… One was, “Didn’t He?” Then the other is Ti Chape
Randy Matthews
I was requested to do Ti Chape for that.
Randy Matthews
Didn’t he? I’ll never get around not doing it. I’ve broken so many guitars. If I hit them like that.
Darren Hirst
In my church at home, we did a version of that at Easter time, didn’t he? The first year we did it, the guy who told us he was a drummer, we decided he would make that nail sound on a single drum, and he messed it up completely. But the second time we did it, Isobel did it on the side of the piano casing. That worked well.
Randy Matthews
That’s a big sound.
Darren Hirst
Well, Randy Matthews! He is everything that you would imagine him to be. He is a little… What’s the word? I guess if you imagine the maybe you were around for the Jesus Rock period, or maybe you’ve seen the recent Jesus Revolution film with Kelsey Grammer, and you see the hippie guys and that thing. Randy still fits into that generation. If you’re ever in Florida, then please do go see him performing as Red Beard the Pirate. Because, again, I’ve only heard the songs, but it sounds like that’s a lot of fun.
Ash Matthews
It’s a great live experience. Live personal experience with someone who knows what they’re doing
Darren Hirst
It’s amazing. If you are fond “Now Do You Understand?” The mix of songs and stories that is all worked into the Red Beard experience as well. The one thing I can tell you as I’m sitting opposite him is that he genuinely does have a red beard.
Ash Matthews
Even in New York, people genuinely do look at it.
Darren Hirst
I want to thank you for reading this. All good. Thank you for joining us.
Randy Matthews
My son is excellent, my son. I appreciate it. I appreciate you being with us, too, Isobel, sweetheart. Thank you.
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